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	<title>Comments on: This Christian&#8217;s Thoughts on CA Prop 8</title>
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	<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/</link>
	<description>Where The Thoughts In McRoberts&#039; Head Find A Home</description>
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		<title>By: Cathryn</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-2062</link>
		<dc:creator>Cathryn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Jul 2009 14:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-2062</guid>
		<description>I was voting yes on prop 8. But, I have changed my mind. I don&#039;t think anyone has a right to take marriage away from anyone. I really think these issues should not really be put out there for us to vote on.

I am mixed, and it was not long ago that interracial couples could not marry. Blacks could not marry. I will never vote for something so unfair.

I do know the bible states that. I agree we need to treat gays and lesbians much better and be more inviting to them in the church. If they change in time, that is great. But if they don&#039;t change, I believe God has the answer for them too. But taking away rights is a problem.

Can I be a christian and still support gay marriage? It is not my right to tell anyone they can&#039;t marry. I just think it is interesting that Jesus says a lot about divorce, but I don&#039;t see him saying much on homosexuality. I mean Jesus loved everyone and no one was &quot;unpure&quot; in his life. He talked to them and loved them and HEALED them. We just have to have compassion, love and care for others. Bringing people to GOD is the first priority I think. And including everyone, but I may be wrong. I just can&#039;t support anything morally wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was voting yes on prop 8. But, I have changed my mind. I don&#8217;t think anyone has a right to take marriage away from anyone. I really think these issues should not really be put out there for us to vote on.</p>
<p>I am mixed, and it was not long ago that interracial couples could not marry. Blacks could not marry. I will never vote for something so unfair.</p>
<p>I do know the bible states that. I agree we need to treat gays and lesbians much better and be more inviting to them in the church. If they change in time, that is great. But if they don&#8217;t change, I believe God has the answer for them too. But taking away rights is a problem.</p>
<p>Can I be a christian and still support gay marriage? It is not my right to tell anyone they can&#8217;t marry. I just think it is interesting that Jesus says a lot about divorce, but I don&#8217;t see him saying much on homosexuality. I mean Jesus loved everyone and no one was &#8220;unpure&#8221; in his life. He talked to them and loved them and HEALED them. We just have to have compassion, love and care for others. Bringing people to GOD is the first priority I think. And including everyone, but I may be wrong. I just can&#8217;t support anything morally wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-81</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 03:08:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-81</guid>
		<description>Sorry Tim, you are not (or should not be) free to force society to adhere to your ideals. That, &lt;a href=&quot;http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;by definition&lt;/a&gt; is bigotry. I don&#039;t wish to brainwash (or even teach) your kid anything. I think you should be free to raise your kid as you wish. Just afford me the same courtesy. Just don&#039;t force me or my neighbors to adhere to your ideals.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Tim, you are not (or should not be) free to force society to adhere to your ideals. That, <a href="http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=bigot" rel="nofollow">by definition</a> is bigotry. I don&#8217;t wish to brainwash (or even teach) your kid anything. I think you should be free to raise your kid as you wish. Just afford me the same courtesy. Just don&#8217;t force me or my neighbors to adhere to your ideals.</p>
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		<title>By: Tim</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-80</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 22 Nov 2008 22:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-80</guid>
		<description>Only one thing seems to be missing both from your article and from the comments following: the children. In California, two gays may legally adopt a child. The passage of Proposition 8 could only serve to solidify the State&#039;s position on this issue. In my mind, this is a child-protection issue because I truly believe that a child raised by two gays is worse off than a child raised by a mother and a father or even by a single parent.

More than that, however, this is about protecting MY child from the creeping cold of a society that increasingly sneers at my traditional family and attempts to brainwash my child (before the age of six!) into believing that I am the bigot because I want her to be raised by a mother and a father.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Only one thing seems to be missing both from your article and from the comments following: the children. In California, two gays may legally adopt a child. The passage of Proposition 8 could only serve to solidify the State&#8217;s position on this issue. In my mind, this is a child-protection issue because I truly believe that a child raised by two gays is worse off than a child raised by a mother and a father or even by a single parent.</p>
<p>More than that, however, this is about protecting MY child from the creeping cold of a society that increasingly sneers at my traditional family and attempts to brainwash my child (before the age of six!) into believing that I am the bigot because I want her to be raised by a mother and a father.</p>
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		<title>By: Ray Hollister</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-78</link>
		<dc:creator>Ray Hollister</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 14:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-78</guid>
		<description>Well written. 

I am a Floridian. We had a similar law on the books this fall, Amendment Proposition 2. However, it was much stricter. It essentially made all relationships outside of a marriage between one man and one woman, i.e. civil unions, not recognized legally. 

The only thing that I disagree with you on is your decision to abstain from voting on Prop 8. Forgive me if others have already commented on this, because I haven&#039;t read any of the responses. I agree with you that neither a &quot;Yes&quot; nor a &quot;No&quot; vote represent what I believe, but I also agree that this debate is taking place in the wrong arena. Therefore, my logical conclusion was that the only correct option was to vote &quot;No&quot;. 

I disagree with you about abstaining is because as long as we live in a country where we can vote, regardless or whether we show up at the polling place, we are making a vote. 

If we included nonvoters in the count towards majority, then nonvoters would be a vote against the proposal, because it would increase the total votes, making it more difficult to get to the required majority. Since we do not include nonvoters, it reduces the number of total votes, therefore tips the election in favor of the proposal. So, as our election system is currently setup, the abstainer&#039;s vote is a vote for the passing of a proposal. 

Otherwise, your article was very enjoyable to read and courageous. I enjoy reading other Christians who have a clear understanding of the Gospel, and don&#039;t look at things through the lens  of any particular agenda.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well written. </p>
<p>I am a Floridian. We had a similar law on the books this fall, Amendment Proposition 2. However, it was much stricter. It essentially made all relationships outside of a marriage between one man and one woman, i.e. civil unions, not recognized legally. </p>
<p>The only thing that I disagree with you on is your decision to abstain from voting on Prop 8. Forgive me if others have already commented on this, because I haven&#8217;t read any of the responses. I agree with you that neither a &#8220;Yes&#8221; nor a &#8220;No&#8221; vote represent what I believe, but I also agree that this debate is taking place in the wrong arena. Therefore, my logical conclusion was that the only correct option was to vote &#8220;No&#8221;. </p>
<p>I disagree with you about abstaining is because as long as we live in a country where we can vote, regardless or whether we show up at the polling place, we are making a vote. </p>
<p>If we included nonvoters in the count towards majority, then nonvoters would be a vote against the proposal, because it would increase the total votes, making it more difficult to get to the required majority. Since we do not include nonvoters, it reduces the number of total votes, therefore tips the election in favor of the proposal. So, as our election system is currently setup, the abstainer&#8217;s vote is a vote for the passing of a proposal. </p>
<p>Otherwise, your article was very enjoyable to read and courageous. I enjoy reading other Christians who have a clear understanding of the Gospel, and don&#8217;t look at things through the lens  of any particular agenda.</p>
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		<title>By: Janet</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-75</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 18 Nov 2008 21:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-75</guid>
		<description>This was a pleasant article to read.  You gave voice to my dissatisfaction with Prop 8 and gay marriage.  I agree that the only way to resolve this is to have civil unions bestowed by the state and marriage blessed within the church.  Now we have to figure out how to get Congress on board.  =)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a pleasant article to read.  You gave voice to my dissatisfaction with Prop 8 and gay marriage.  I agree that the only way to resolve this is to have civil unions bestowed by the state and marriage blessed within the church.  Now we have to figure out how to get Congress on board.  =)</p>
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		<title>By: Bill</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-73</link>
		<dc:creator>Bill</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 15 Nov 2008 19:59:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-73</guid>
		<description>Thanks so much for your post… The loud call for opponents of Prop. 8 to “get over it and accept the will of the people” is embarrassing for teachers of social studies and American government in California public and private schools.  Clearly, at least 52% of California voters missed the lesson where we learned about how our system of government was designed with a network of political checks and balances to prevent what is called the “tyranny of the majority,” to ensure that our system of government ultimately protects the rights of minorities against what any given majority (religious in the case of Prop. 8) might care to legislate into law.  

Perhaps the Prop 8 people also missed the news that a consortium of civil rights groups have filed suit against Prop. 8 (story at: http://equaljusticesociety.org/prop8/).  They know that any legislation that curtails civil rights for one group that is allowed to stand, regardless of how they may personally feel about that minority, opens the door as precedent to legislate against the rights of another.  Perhaps there’s another group out there who doesn’t like having Native American tribes own all those casinos, or business signs in only Spanish, Korean or Farsi, and perhaps we should do something about those obnoxiously ornate Mormon temples all over the place.  And what about those Knights of Columbus?  Does anyone doubt their intimate connection to the Roman Catholic Church?  Perhaps a majority of us should pass a law so that the entire American Roman Catholic church is taxed as a private corporation consequent to the political activity of their Blessed Knights.  Perhaps those of you who hate one minority and would deprive them of civil rights might reconsider your political stand (not your religious beliefs) if you consider the precedent being set by Proposition 8.  It may be their very beliefs that become the next target for oppression despite your personal belief in their universality.

Whether one believes the Earth is flat, that Adam walked with dinosaurs, that Shiva had six arms, that crystals cure cancer, that fairies live in willows, that Jesus saves you from your sins, or that people choose their sexual identity, your freedom is protected by that Constitution they are trying to change.  God save them from themselves.  Meanwhile, the rest of us have to try to keep America whole, and not let our system be torn by more hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks so much for your post… The loud call for opponents of Prop. 8 to “get over it and accept the will of the people” is embarrassing for teachers of social studies and American government in California public and private schools.  Clearly, at least 52% of California voters missed the lesson where we learned about how our system of government was designed with a network of political checks and balances to prevent what is called the “tyranny of the majority,” to ensure that our system of government ultimately protects the rights of minorities against what any given majority (religious in the case of Prop. <img src='http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif' alt='8)' class='wp-smiley' /> might care to legislate into law.  </p>
<p>Perhaps the Prop 8 people also missed the news that a consortium of civil rights groups have filed suit against Prop. 8 (story at: <a href="http://equaljusticesociety.org/prop8/" rel="nofollow">http://equaljusticesociety.org/prop8/</a>).  They know that any legislation that curtails civil rights for one group that is allowed to stand, regardless of how they may personally feel about that minority, opens the door as precedent to legislate against the rights of another.  Perhaps there’s another group out there who doesn’t like having Native American tribes own all those casinos, or business signs in only Spanish, Korean or Farsi, and perhaps we should do something about those obnoxiously ornate Mormon temples all over the place.  And what about those Knights of Columbus?  Does anyone doubt their intimate connection to the Roman Catholic Church?  Perhaps a majority of us should pass a law so that the entire American Roman Catholic church is taxed as a private corporation consequent to the political activity of their Blessed Knights.  Perhaps those of you who hate one minority and would deprive them of civil rights might reconsider your political stand (not your religious beliefs) if you consider the precedent being set by Proposition 8.  It may be their very beliefs that become the next target for oppression despite your personal belief in their universality.</p>
<p>Whether one believes the Earth is flat, that Adam walked with dinosaurs, that Shiva had six arms, that crystals cure cancer, that fairies live in willows, that Jesus saves you from your sins, or that people choose their sexual identity, your freedom is protected by that Constitution they are trying to change.  God save them from themselves.  Meanwhile, the rest of us have to try to keep America whole, and not let our system be torn by more hate.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-72</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 14 Nov 2008 18:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-72</guid>
		<description>Oh, one more thing. Jesus did not, &quot;lobby against many practices that had nothing to do with Him.&quot; He didn&#039;t lobby anything. Jesus never appealed to the legal authority of his time to promote social change. Jesus seemed to prefer  persuasion rather than the force of government to enforce his &quot;law.&quot; Remember, that law was supposed to be written on the hearts of people, not on ballots and government books.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh, one more thing. Jesus did not, &#8220;lobby against many practices that had nothing to do with Him.&#8221; He didn&#8217;t lobby anything. Jesus never appealed to the legal authority of his time to promote social change. Jesus seemed to prefer  persuasion rather than the force of government to enforce his &#8220;law.&#8221; Remember, that law was supposed to be written on the hearts of people, not on ballots and government books.</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-70</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 21:13:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-70</guid>
		<description>Well, I said that you&#039;re headed down the right path with that comment. I was agreeing with you, Mike.

I don&#039;t believe it to be moral, ethical, Christian, or even constitutional to legislate the rights or freedoms of people. This should have never been voted on. From a constitutional perspective, this is an equal protection case. Ethically, it is wrong to constrain the freedoms of others out of distaste for their lifestyle. Morally, we should be doing unto others as we would have them do to us. From a Christian perspective, we should be loving God and loving our neighbors, not passing laws to emphasize a distinction between us and them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, I said that you&#8217;re headed down the right path with that comment. I was agreeing with you, Mike.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t believe it to be moral, ethical, Christian, or even constitutional to legislate the rights or freedoms of people. This should have never been voted on. From a constitutional perspective, this is an equal protection case. Ethically, it is wrong to constrain the freedoms of others out of distaste for their lifestyle. Morally, we should be doing unto others as we would have them do to us. From a Christian perspective, we should be loving God and loving our neighbors, not passing laws to emphasize a distinction between us and them.</p>
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		<title>By: Mike R</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-63</link>
		<dc:creator>Mike R</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 16:33:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-63</guid>
		<description>Matthew,

First of all I would like to thank you for your thoughts, but I think Jesus had no need to lobbie because He is the law.  He did, in your words, &quot;lobbie&quot; against many practices that had nothing to do with Him.  He did not however lower the bar on His morality.   With that said, I would like you to expound on why you believe I am going down the wrong path.  Let me begin this with my thoughts on the issue.  In our society we have the right to practice our faith with freedom.  In this we also have the right to formulate laws that also allign with our values.  I don&#039;t know that this is 100% correct for me to legislate according to my faith, however I do believe it to be.  With the information I have and my limited understanding of the mind of God I believe this to be the correct action for me to take.  Please share your thoughts on the subject.  I pray that I am not seen as a bigot, I am just attempting to live out my faith the best way I know how and according to the laws of this country excercise my right to vote.

In love,

Mike R</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Matthew,</p>
<p>First of all I would like to thank you for your thoughts, but I think Jesus had no need to lobbie because He is the law.  He did, in your words, &#8220;lobbie&#8221; against many practices that had nothing to do with Him.  He did not however lower the bar on His morality.   With that said, I would like you to expound on why you believe I am going down the wrong path.  Let me begin this with my thoughts on the issue.  In our society we have the right to practice our faith with freedom.  In this we also have the right to formulate laws that also allign with our values.  I don&#8217;t know that this is 100% correct for me to legislate according to my faith, however I do believe it to be.  With the information I have and my limited understanding of the mind of God I believe this to be the correct action for me to take.  Please share your thoughts on the subject.  I pray that I am not seen as a bigot, I am just attempting to live out my faith the best way I know how and according to the laws of this country excercise my right to vote.</p>
<p>In love,</p>
<p>Mike R</p>
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		<title>By: Matthew</title>
		<link>http://www.justinmcroberts.com/blog/2008/10/this-christians-thoughts-on-ca-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-62</link>
		<dc:creator>Matthew</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 07 Nov 2008 00:21:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://justinmcroberts.com/blog/?p=90#comment-62</guid>
		<description>I think Mike is headed down the right path.

I don&#039;t remember Jesus ever lobbying for legislation. As Mike points out, Jesus&#039; entire message was wrapped around the idea of transcending laws, not enacting or enforcing them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Mike is headed down the right path.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t remember Jesus ever lobbying for legislation. As Mike points out, Jesus&#8217; entire message was wrapped around the idea of transcending laws, not enacting or enforcing them.</p>
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